However, we are talking primarily about two of the biggest tribes: Sumo and Heishui. However, falling on to uncommon beliefs, via negative evidence, is a bit disappointing. If they could be identified it would certainly be a very strong argument for Koreanic having been the language of the Goguryeo rulers. The more shocking thing is what Vovin (as well as Whitman and Unger) theory means if you take it to its logical conclusion: That para-Japanese was spoken on the peninsula before para-Korean. Whether Unified Silla, Goryeo or Joseon were more representative of Korea remained debateable; then, they were all parts of Korean history. I resigned my moderator duties at CHF in early 2008. The same source states that Goguryeo did not have the same language or customs as Yilou. Well, the Manchu do exist as a shadow of their former selves, with perhaps 20k that identify with that ethnicity and perhaps 5k elderly speakers of the language. Not that those guys are dumb or anything but the writing styles alone should distinguish us. Perhaps you are personally interested in historical linguistics purely as an academic pursuit, but for most Koreans the question of the Goguryeo language relates directly to the claim over Goguryeo having been, they assume, (ethnically) “Korean”. The general Malgal were not subject to the forced mass exodus. The ancient Goguryo people thought that a three-legged crow lived in the sun while a turtle lived in the moon. If you think Prussia is Polish; Indus civ, British; Tibet and Inner Mongolia, Chinese, I have nothing more to say to you. [14], Scholars who take these words as representing the language of Goguryeo have come to a range of conclusions about the language. Beckwith's linguistic analysis has been criticized for the ad hoc nature of his Chinese reconstructions, for his handling of Japonic material and for hasty rejection of possible cognates in other languages. [13] In my experience, no professional scholar creates theories from out of a vacuum and then support those theories from assertions via fiat, especially in situations where there is an established body peer-reviewed academic discussion that is contrary to your unsupported line of reasoning. From other examples, scholars infer that 難隱 means 'seven' and 別 means '-fold, layer', while the 'county' part of the gloss is not represented. Additionally, there hasn’t been a concerted effort to gather up all the old place names (i.e. Furthermore, Vovin says that Jurchenic adopts loan words from Koguryo (and is hence not genetic to one another) here: https://www.academia.edu/1804226/Korean_Loanwords. The Chinese have traditionally viewed Goguryeo as a foreign state that was part of the China-centred tribute system. In short I may not exactly know what Koguryo was. Also, in the memorial steles to some of Yon Kaesomun’s sons in China, there is clear identification of Goguryeo with Go Joseon. Oral history is similarly dependent on transmission and continued relevance to the audience (but subject to distortion quickly becoming folklore). There was next to no significant Goguryeo history played out in modern Russian territory, but to the extent that there may be some archaeological remains, then there would be motivation for local Russians and academics to be interested in Goguryeo. [31], A small number of inscriptions have been found in Goguryeo territory, including the Gwanggaeto Stele (erected in Ji'an in 414), four inscriptions on the walls of Pyongyang Castle, and a stele in Jungwon, Chungju (590s). Whilst royal tombs were later constructed around modern Pyongyang and South Pyeong’an province (west of Pyongyang), Goguryeo’s spiritual homeland remained the region of Jolbon, modern Jilin, where the shrine to the mythical progenitor, Ethnic identity is a strongly subjective notion. What a clown you are. Thus, it was their language, not whatever language that Goguryeo spoke, that was to inherit Manchuria. I accept all your points made concerning the lack of hard evidence. I’ve done more for Korean history understanding on the internet than you can probably imagine, but more than you certainly know. The Goryeo (Koryo) dynasty, after another round of inter-state fighting known as the Later Three Kingdoms period (889-935 CE), conquered the whole of the Korean peninsula. They contain impressionistic remarks about the languages of the area based on second-hand reports, and sometimes contradict one another. Read Japanese light novel, read Chinese light novel and read korean light novel online 21st century Goguryeo – Read light novel online in english. Most historians have traditionally viewed Goguryeo as a Korean state, one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea. ” I would argue, the presumed unity of the Three Kingdoms is a retrospective projection of Goryeo era historians”. Most linguists (such as those that did pioneering work such as Ki-moon Lee and Yoshizo Itabashi) would interpret this data to indicate a language that had undeniable links to both Korean and Japanese languages. As for whether any “serious” or “credible” linguist has discussed the idea that Goguryeo may have been related to Jurchenic, I offer a direct quote by Lee Ki-Moon from his 1958 paper “A comparative study of Manchu and Korean” which states: “Concerning the language of Ko-ku-rye we have little knowledge. 21st century Goguryeo english novel online, A novel about the Government.. So, there are many Koreans, some who are nationalistic, who do relish a genetic link between Koreans and Jurchen/Manchu. However, I agree with you that Goguryeo, when it existed, wasn’t ethnically Chinese. Don’t take the length the time in my response as a lack of interest or ability. These Sumo were then mobilized by Goguryeo in their battles against the Sui. Again, the most recent information points to no genetic relationship between the Puyo/Koguryo and the Malgal/Sushen languages. In the case of the international name, the Korean pronunciation should probably remain in acknowledgement of the longer historiographic tradition. I am very active on military history blogs as well and I will tell whoever is willing to listen that the battle of Waterloo has taken on way too much of an Anglocentric narrative, given that only 25k of the 200k troops that fought there were English and the rest were French, German, Dutch-Belgium or Prussian. You have not answered my question. This state of affairs did not change until the founding of the modern Chinese Communist Party and they immediately set to work on researching their borders; the current Chinese claims are the natural outcome of this official revisionist history project, in essence no different from the purpose of compiling dynastic histories (that is, to legitimize territorial claims and assimilate ethnic minorities). Actually, they called Koguryo exclusively “Koryo” in the Nihon Shoki. Manchu claim Puyo heritage but even they leave Koguryo to Koreans and to Koreans only, You need to take a deep breath and settle down. Any “serious” or “credible” linguist would most certainly consider it so. However, at the end of the day such questions are not really relevant. Equally there was no larger Manchurian identity and Goguryeo was constantly at war with most neighbouring states including the various northern ‘Chinese’ dynasties (with the exception of Northern Wei which was an ethnic Xianbei entity and with which Goguryeo general maintained better relations). It should tell us that it was multiethnic and multilingual, and it would therefore be a self-conceit to claim Balhae’s history as purely “Korean”. Vovin actually advanced a rather shocking theory that not only Koguryo spoke a form of Old Korean, but also the Korean language itself had started in middle-south Manchuria. But Goguryeo is not Tibet! Chinese and South Korean commentary on Goguryeo. However, as you know, throughout the Samguk-sagi, other Malgal are regularly mentioned as active on the Korean peninsula from earliest times. “… initially Shillla spoke a para-Japonic language except by political elites but by the time Hyanga was sung during the 6-7th century Old Korean took root even among the general populace.”. In fact this is far more naked and unjustifiable imperialism than that of the West or the conquest of Tibet. There is states that Goguryeo (when its capital was close to modern Ji’an) was contiguous with Puyo, Eastern Okcho, Ye and Yilou. It would appear that the chroniclers of the Nihon Shoki were grouping these various peninsular states into a single defined ethnicity. Some fled to Khitan or Eastern Turk. With that in mind, the best available (and true scholars talk of “best available” when there is nothing else available) insight into the Goguryeo language would be the place name data preserved in the Samguk Sagi. The dispute is not academic or scholarly but politically motivated on both sides as both mainland China and the two Koreas are equally concerned about very real. The same formula would apply to the British Empire (during the time it formally existed) but to a much lesser degree because the territory was never consolidated into a nation state (for obvious reasons). I find that offensive. Tell me if you have other ideas, but the only ideal solution, as I can see from your perspective, ultimately is for China to “relinquish” the territory, either to (North?!) The Chinese sources never expressly said that the Koguryo and Samhan languages were different. I don’t know if you are aware of this, but there is an increasing movement in Korea to associate Koreanic with Jurchenic. Many fled to Silla and Japan. Goguryeo ethnic identity would have been forged from a multiethnic diversity primarily consisting of the southern Manchurian groups including a superstrate of the, semi-naturalized, descendants of former ethnic Han (漢) ‘Chinese’ who subjugated the region in 108BCE. Goguryeo, originally inhabiting the valley of the Hun River, believed themselves to be a southern offshoot of Buyeo. Convincing people takes time, dialogue and patience in addition to. [24] Other evidence is extremely sparse, and is limited to peculiarities in the Chinese language of Goguryeo inscriptions and a very few Goguryeo words glossed in Chinese texts. That Koguryo people considered themselves to be part of “Three Han” is quite telling among others. [2] (Yes I made some grammatical errors too;”…China conjure…” which should have been “China conjures”;That is because it had been ” they conjure” before I changed the word; a comma in the wrong place and it should have been “…Between these two, most of us…”. I wonder how Koreans would respond if China, or (more appropriate but hypothetically) a modern Manchurian nation-state today, claimed that the peninsula Malgal were not Korean and therefore a part of their own ethno-national identity. All are written in Chinese, but some of them contain irregularities, including a few examples of object–verb order (as found in Korean and other northeast Asian languages) instead of the usual Chinese verb–object order, and some uses of the characters 之 and 伊, which some authors have connected to their use to represent Korean particles in later Idu texts from Unified Silla. Japanese sources mention no relationship between Koguryo and Malgal (a.k.a Jurchen predecessors) cultures or languages. In my case I think Korean claim to Koguryo heritage is strong. – tentative thoughts, https://tuhat.halvi.helsinki.fi/portal/en/persons/andrew-logie(06e77bac-570e-4698-b965-bf717f4873c7), Professor Kwon Oh Young on Early Korean History. was it more Korean-like or Japanese-like) the theory you brought up that it may have been more Malgal-like is not one that any serious linguists have ever discussed. Now, I shall address this question from you: Because that’s where I believe the evidence is pointing. Juha Janhunen argues for a Tungusic affiliation based on historical evidence that the Jurchens of the Jin dynasty and later the Manchus of the Qing dynasty that rose from the former territory of Goguryeo were Tungusic speakers. I think it was you who banned me at Chinahistoryforum. We all said “Yeah LOL that is very Chinese, I told you so you commie lovin lefites(about the unique status of China as the world’s first and only Communist Imperialism). hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm????? There were likely many languages spoken as a linguistic spectrum across the territory of Goguryeo, increasingly so as it expanded. As in previous times, a respect for Chinese culture and ability to practise its ideals continued to be a markof gentility amongst the Korean elite. In 245, King Dongcheon of Goguryeoordered attacking to the Silla territory, but two kingdoms entered into friendly relations in 248. Later Korean histories, such as the Samguk sagi, do not describe the languages of the three kingdoms. Goguryeo emerged in the south of continental Manchuria with its early power base in the region of modern Jilin province of present day mainland China. I will discuss my views of Balhae’s ethnicity, language and culture at a later date. It was NOT Chinese. Unless, that is, one is looking to make the ethnic association for nationalistic purposes. One is the fact that there are more layers of conquest and displacement in Manchuria than in the Korean peninsula. Additionally, in the book Lee writes with Robert Ramesy titled, “A History of the Korean Language,” published in 2011 states: “The Chinese chroniclers further reported that the Puyo language contrasted with those in the Sukin group. I think any good moderator would hold the line at racist speech. However, in the not unrelated case of Balhae, the usual Korean formula is to claim that a “Korean” Goguryeo elite ruled over a non-Korean Malgal/Mohe population which would have spoken non-Goguryeo languages: so what would that tell us about Balhae’s ethnic identity? Most Japanese scholars choose to hedge by saying that the place name data points to the Goguryeo language possibly being an amalgamation of Korean and Japanese. Your line is mindlessly conciliatory. Oh, by “he” I meant Andrew Logie. There is a passage in the Nihon Shoki that says (and I shall paraphrase): “Men from the states of Han, including Koryo, Kudara, Shiragi and Imna Kara, went to the palace to help oversee the construction of a pond.”. Thus, there were clearly Han people as far as southern Manchuria! The evidence, as well as scholarly opinion, is far more numerous than what you can summon to support your theories. Then, in accordance with a more inclusive view of the modern People's Republic of China as a multi-ethnic nation state, the concept of Chinese history was expanded to encompass … They were said to be quite different from the Samhan ('three Han') in the southern part of the Korean peninsula. I would say, though, unless these markers were actually identical to those found in the hyangchal (鄕札) transcription system of the Silla hyangga songs – such that we could presume them to represent the same phonemes – it would only indicate that Goguryeo was also a language of a basic Altaic typology, which is to be expected whether or not it was Koreanic, Tungusic or something else. During the Three Kingdoms period there was no concept of a “Three Kingdoms” identity; nor throughout Unified Silla and Balhae. What surprised us is that the West sided with China generally. These are favorite sources of MK for Vovin. [15][16][17] some would speculate, Yi Seonggye’s ancestors) just as many Goguryeo people remained in Balhae north of the peninsula, and – whether or not they included the Balhae elite – they ultimately would have acculturated to the subsequent Khitan and Jurchen dominated dynasties, destined never to become Korean. In the case of Goguryeo, it is reasonable to assume that the core population spoke the dynastic language. need to give Native Americans back their continent – yet it is indeed this sort of thinking from Korean nationalists that continue to encourage China to distort Goguryeo history. In a list of candidate language groups for Goguryeo, Tungusic is one of the most obvious, absolute core possibilities to consider – alongside Koreanic and, to a lesser degree Japonic. Concerning the linguistic information given in the Sanguo-zhi (三國志ㆍ魏志ㆍ東夷傳), and other Chinese sources, the well known problem is, they were not written by modern linguists so it is impossible to know how they differentiated between dialects, languages and language families, and on what level of research/hearsay they based their descriptions. If, for example it was Balhae that changed the place names, we wouldn’t know that because all of Balhae’s written materials would have been lost. You are a professional scholar of Korea. As before, I will address your points individually: As for whether any “serious” or “credible” linguist has discussed the idea that Goguryeo may have been related to Jurchenic, I offer a direct quote by Lee Ki-Moon from his 1958 paper “A comparative study of Manchu and Korean”. Between these, two most of us in East Asia prefer the latter. The Goguryeo–Tang War occurred from 645 to 668 and was fought between the Goguryeo Kingdom and Tang Dynasty.During the course of the war, the two sides allied with various other states. Are you an illiterate? Goryeo subsequently establis… Was Goguryeo 高句麗 (Gāogōulí) Korean or Chinese? In your blog you seem to be someone who cares about scholarship. Goguryeo–Silla relationship also almost keep the hostile relations like the Goguryeo–Baekje relationship. Again, I turn to Vovin. More people will just choose to shut you out. However, the circumstances and motivation of colonialism make everything much weaker. “I think any good moderator would hold the line at racist speech.”. It is interesting that the same sentence-final 之 is found in Silla inscriptions. In culture, ritual, and music, we are entirely following its model" (Portal, 79). The Goguryeo language, or Koguryoan, was the language of the ancient kingdom of Goguryeo (37 BCE – 668 CE), one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea. I don’t think he has the authority to ban me here. Your research, and hence your conclusions, are highly flawed and do not find corresponding support anywhere. The confusion in the Sangouzhi and the Hou Hanshu indicates a great deal of language heterogeneity in the Samhan. However all historical evaluations are probabilistic. The language of the rulers was likely Koreonic, as Vovin mentioned in his various papers that depend on Koreonic grammatical markers on Koguryo stele inscriptions (which obviously, was built by the rulers). It started out as Duchy of Prussia most of whose territory resides within the current border of Poland. Many Korean authors suggest that the language was a dialect of Old Korean. With that being said, I have to disagree with WangKon936 comments to Baiyaan “Your aggressive commenting style isn’t winning any friends or converts.” I don’t think that defending Korean history from those trying to rewrite it is an act of aggression. [2], The state of Buyeo, in the upper Songhua basin, was known to the Chinese from the 3rd century BCE. Others maintain that it was Tungusic, or that there is insufficient evidence to establish its affiliation. The simple fact of the matter is that there is no evidence whatsoever, based on what we know of the Malgal language (using the more recent examples of Manchurian/Tungustic languages such as Jurchen, Manchu, Evenki, Nanai, etc.) That’s all anyone can really ask, I suppose. Granted, that is a particularly early paper of Lee Ki-Moon. (By the way, I do not think that modern colonialism in any context was ever a good thing). Although the pronunciations recorded using Chinese characters are difficult to interpret, some of these words appear to resemble Tungusic, Korean or Japonic words. And the circumstances of Western colonialism and Japanese colonialism are not the same either. I am not here on a corny self anointed mission as you do. So lest Poland destroys the historical remains of that state you should declare Prussia Polish? The contemporary ethnic identity of Goguryeo was neither Korean (which didn’t exist at the time) nor Han. Chinese histories contain a few glosses of Goguryeo words: Vovin also pointed to Koreanic loanwords in Jurchen and Manchu, and argued that the Goguryeo language was the ancestor of Koreanic, and spread southwards to replace the Japonic languages of the Samhan. Shove your hypocritical decorum far up your ass. 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